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area51newmexico



Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 10598
Location: East Yorkshire, England

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject:  

The leader of the Church of England (sorry I've forgot his name) also agrees that the story of creation, Adam and Eve is just a story, he openly believes in evolution. If he can (and he's a particularly religious person) have an open mind, why can't others?
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Ilovearea51



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 366
Location: In 80 years alone in a hole.

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject:  

area51newmexico wrote: The leader of the Church of England (sorry I've forgot his name) also agrees that the story of creation, Adam and Eve is just a story, he openly believes in evolution. If he can (and he's a particularly religious person) have an open mind, why can't others?

Every one is titled to there opinion, but Id rather follow the truth. I know God created us, I know this because the proof is all around us. We are all ignorant. The proof could be right in front of us that God created us, but we would never ever see it because We wan't it our way. We choose to ignore the undinible fact that there is a God who made us. How foolish could one be to think that our complex bodies and universe came from chance, from evulition, from over millons of billons of years. I dont want to follow my way that is for sure. Go ahead argue me all day, all [i]night I am ready for your criticism your saying this and that, wich is infact sound very foolish to me. Im not forcing any thing upon any one for this truth you must find out for your self.
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:48 am    Post subject:  

Evolution does not claim that curent species are the product of random chance, but that when faced with environmental changes, some mutations cope better with those changes and they are the only ones who survive to reproductive age.

At the dawn of modern man there were as few as 2,000 hominids who survived, but they went forth and multiplied because their mutation had a better brain than the norm and the other mutant strains.

Maybe a creator set the evolutionary ball rolling and we're all part of some cosmic experiment. I'm not concerned with the existence or not of God, but in the absence of any personal evidence, I can get by without faith.

My little sis is a devout Christian, and in a time of tragic crisis for her, her faith enabled her to go on. I'm sure faith is important to some people and have no agenda against them, but I don't want or need it.
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aalpha



Joined: 17 Oct 2005
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Location: Where ever you need me I'll be there. Whatever you need done I'll do it. Made in the USA.

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:21 am    Post subject:  

Sounds like the group of clergymen warwgn quoted and Helen's example are from people who beleive God created evolution. I could live with that if evolution was occurring in our time the way evolutionists describe it happening in the past. It isn't. The so called "progression" from four legged posture to upright posture sounds to me like somebody finding a tree limb on the ground first then finding a wooden desk and concluding that wood has evolvled into furniture. The two end points simply do not make a straigh line as in geometry.
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Ilovearea51



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 366
Location: In 80 years alone in a hole.

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject:  

tafkao wrote: Evolution does not claim that curent species are the product of random chance, but that when faced with environmental changes, some mutations cope better with those changes and they are the only ones who survive to reproductive age.

At the dawn of modern man there were as few as 2,000 hominids who survived, but they went forth and multiplied because their mutation had a better brain than the norm and the other mutant strains.

Maybe a creator set the evolutionary ball rolling and we're all part of some cosmic experiment. I'm not concerned with the existence or not of God, but in the absence of any personal evidence, I can get by without faith.

My little sis is a devout Christian, and in a time of tragic crisis for her, her faith enabled her to go on. I'm sure faith is important to some people and have no agenda against them, but I don't want or need it.

Every one has faith. Even you. When you sat down on a chair once, I bet you had faith that it wouldn't break when you sat on it. Let me jsut say EVERY ONE HAS FAITH. You need faith, every one does.
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject:  

Evolution is happening all around us, but too slowly to observe in real time mostly. Here's an example.

Just before the industrial revolution in England, a guy counted salt and pepper moths on ash trees - 90% white with black spots 10% black with white spots.

A century later, the trees had be stained with soot. By then, there were 10% white with black spots and 90% black with white spots.

Nowadays, with less smoke, the trees have whitened and the populations have reversed again.

When the tree bark darkened, the light moths became easier to see and nearly died out. Light and dark moths are two mutations, and environmental differences favour one over the other.

Had we kept up dirty industrial coal power, there would only be dark moths left by now, and we would say that moth had evolved.

Generally, it takes millions of years to evolve, so you can't say it's not happening now. It's like saying stalectites don't get bigger over time because you've never seen one getting bigger.
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject:  

Don't confuse faith with trust. Faith is belief in something which cannot be proved or disproved.

I trust the chair won't break when I sit on it and I can prove or disprove that by sitting down.

The ongoing occurrence of new genetic variations (mutations) is happening all around us and has been proved.

My father has a gene which means he has three kidneys. He didn't pass that gene on, but if he kept having kids he might well have.

There are genes which determine how much heat our bodies can cope with. If global warming increases, those who can cope with high temps will survive and those who don't tolerate heat will die before reproducing.

Eventually, only the heat-tolerant ones will be left, and we will have evolved.

As for what planet I come from - Vulcan, naturally.
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aalpha



Joined: 17 Oct 2005
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Location: Where ever you need me I'll be there. Whatever you need done I'll do it. Made in the USA.

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:08 am    Post subject:  

The moth that was still is. It hasn't become a dragon fly or a bird or some other new life form. Has anyone checked to see if this moth can and does do the same trick a chameleon does only slower maybe? I guess I should look it up myself. I'll see what the information superhighway has on it. My guess is the moth exists in two flavors, in one environment the dark one is easy to see thus easy to eat thus giving the other one a better chance to survive thus become dominant. And visa versa.
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Jarmen



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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Location: Australia, fool.

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:52 am    Post subject:  

thats a good analogy aaplha, yes if there were two different flavours so to speak then of course the best suited moth would thrive, the ones less suited would never of changed they would of just died off making the percentage of survival weigh in favour of which ever one was best suited for the enviroment, be it black or white
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject:  

It's not two different moths. It's like humans have genes for different hair or eye colour. When the environment is dark, more dark moth genes survive, and vice-versa.

You are wanting an example of a process which takes millions of year to happen within your lifetime. It's like saying "I don't believe diamonds exist because the transition from carbon to diamond is not happening within my lifetime" or "That movie does not exist because I have only seen one still shot from it".

The moth example took 200 years and that was just a variation of one gene in the gene pool. If coal usage had stayed high for a thousand years, there would have been no white moths left - it would have evolved from a mainly white moth into a purely black moth. To evovle into a new species, there would have to be multiple environmental changes, and genetic changes in response, over millions of years.

There has been life on earth for billions of years. We can't directly observe its subtle changes - you would have to BE god to observe it happening.
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aalpha



Joined: 17 Oct 2005
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Location: Where ever you need me I'll be there. Whatever you need done I'll do it. Made in the USA.

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject:  

I didn't say two different moths. I said THE (same implied) moth may exist in two different FLAVORS i.e., short vs tall, blond vs brunette, brown eye vs blue eye.

I can know how diamonds form without watching it happen in a lab over a short time. The explanation of diamond formation is not conjecture.

The environment changing to favor one version of critter like a dark moth as opposed to a light moth is not evolution. It is the elimination of a more vulnerable critter. The dominant moth did not become something else to survive. It was lucky while coal was being used then it's luck changed for the worse while the white moth's luck got better.

Evolutionists claim that some crawly critters had to develop legs in order to survive. It is pure conjecture.
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 3946

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:16 am    Post subject:  

New genetic variations happen all the time. We have controlled this by selective breeding for thousands of years.

if we can change stringy wild boars into plump fatty domestic pigs in a few centuries, it would be possible to selectively breed them into a new species over millions of years. It's just that the rate at which new genes occur is very slow.

There is as much scientific evidence for fish leaving water and having fins turn into limbs over millions of years and for some dinosaurs developing feathers and taking to the skies as there is for diamond formation.

The process of environmental 'luck' changing to favour a new genetic variation is called evolution. That is the very definition of evolution.

When sufficient changes in environmental luck and sufficient survivals of genetic variations have occurred, the resulting product is sufficiently different to be called a new species.
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area51newmexico



Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 10598
Location: East Yorkshire, England

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:44 am    Post subject:  

This is something I was thinking about at 3am this morning when I should have been sleeping:

We have discussed the possibility of God/higher being and the possibility of evolution accounting for human creation. but what about other options? We shouldn't rule them out. What about some kinda alien force?

No, I'm not joking, I'm being serious this time.
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aalpha



Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 8399
Location: Where ever you need me I'll be there. Whatever you need done I'll do it. Made in the USA.

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject:  

I'll take aliens over evolution anytime. If I have to speculate on something that has no evidence to support it I'd rather go with something intelligent than the idea that complex organisms, like our bodies, and all the interacting Swiss clock functions therein came about some other way than bubbling up out of the mud and grew legs. Of course "created by the Lord your God" is still first place but *IF* I was going to consider a second alternative, aliens wins hands down.
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whufc88



Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 4408
Location: Calafell, Spain

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:38 am    Post subject:  

the theory to support alien involvement is the sudden leaps in technology. how did we came from living in mud shacks, banging the missus over the head with a stick, to speaking over 100 languages with electricity, transport and a greater biological understanding in what is effectively just over a century, starting from the industrial revolution. you're telling me that someone just thought "hey lets invent electricity" very unlikely
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