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damned_soul1



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 61

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:12 pm    Post subject:  

i beleive that a higher being created us but it was an accident and wwe were a bi-product of something done by this higher power

does anyone else agree??
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aalpha



Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 8399
Location: Where ever you need me I'll be there. Whatever you need done I'll do it. Made in the USA.

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject:  

damned_soul1 wrote: i beleive that a higher being created us but it was an accident and wwe were a bi-product of something done by this higher powerdoes anyone else agree??

Accident. It's enough to make a preacher cuss.
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 3946

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:54 am    Post subject:  

1. we have found a log

2. We have found a pile of planks and a saw and plane

3 We have found sawn up pieces, some nails and a pot of glue.

4. We have found a partially assembled desk

5. We have found a fully assembled desk

Palaeontoligists have found all those, so a process of succession occurred.

If you want to believe some higher being designed and executed the work, go ahead, but don't deny the process and don't ask me to subscibe to an unproveable agent.

As far as I can see, it's a progressive development in respose to a changing environment and fortuitous freaks such - those with mutations such as a bigger brain - surviving where their less developed brothers died out.
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 3946

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject:  

There's evidence of a transition from un-alive compounds to living single cell organisms, but room for doubt in my mind.

Could have been an intelligent designer set the ball rolling, or aliens conducting an experiment, but the process from single cell organism to higher living things is proven science.

If something or someone did make this happen, they sure as hell don't want me to know about them, so I'm happy to oblige and live with the facts on their own.

The Blind Watchmaker, by Richard Dawkins, is a good introduction to how genetic inheritance and variations works.
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aalpha



Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 8399
Location: Where ever you need me I'll be there. Whatever you need done I'll do it. Made in the USA.

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject:  

tafkao wrote: 1. we have found a log

2. We have found a pile of planks and a saw and plane

3 We have found sawn up pieces, some nails and a pot of glue.

4. We have found a partially assembled desk

5. We have found a fully assembled desk

Palaeontoligists have found all those, so a process of succession occurred.

If you want to believe some higher being designed and executed the work, go ahead, but don't deny the process and don't ask me to subscibe to an unproveable agent.

As far as I can see, it's a progressive development in respose to a changing environment and fortuitous freaks such - those with mutations such as a bigger brain - surviving where their less developed brothers died out.

But the log didn't saw and plane itself into a pile of planks and the glue didn't ooze up out of the ground. What you guys are refusing to count is the dadgum carpenter. this is too rich!!! What did Jesus do for a living til he was 30 or so. bwhahahahahahahahaha he was a carpenter!!!! hahahahahahahaha it's too good!!! :lol: :lol:
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whufc88



Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 4408
Location: Calafell, Spain

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject:  

aalpha wrote: tafkao wrote: 1. we have found a log

2. We have found a pile of planks and a saw and plane

3 We have found sawn up pieces, some nails and a pot of glue.

4. We have found a partially assembled desk

5. We have found a fully assembled desk

Palaeontoligists have found all those, so a process of succession occurred.

If you want to believe some higher being designed and executed the work, go ahead, but don't deny the process and don't ask me to subscibe to an unproveable agent.

As far as I can see, it's a progressive development in respose to a changing environment and fortuitous freaks such - those with mutations such as a bigger brain - surviving where their less developed brothers died out.

But the log didn't saw and plane itself into a pile of planks and the glue didn't ooze up out of the ground. What you guys are refusing to count is the dadgum carpenter. this is too rich!!! What did Jesus do for a living til he was 30 or so. bwhahahahahahahahaha he was a carpenter!!!! hahahahahahahaha it's too good!!! :lol: :lol:

quote pyramid!!!!!!!

actually he trained as an apprentice but he turned hippy and started preaching. his dad was the fully fledged carpenter
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 3946

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:05 pm    Post subject:  

"Palaeontoligists have found all those, so a process of succession occurred.

If you want to believe some higher being designed and executed the work, go ahead, but don't deny the process and don't ask me to subscibe to an unproveable agent. "

I did my best with a flawed analogy. Evolution is the process of transformation in this analogy. Whether there was conscious intent behind it or not, the transformation took place.

The analogy was a claim there wasn't a clear chain of succession, which there is. There's no evidence of conscious intent only evidence of a process which doesn't require conscious intent.

I read this at http://taggart.glg.msu.edu/isb200/oolife.htm:

"The development of a stable, DNA-based genetic system was probably the critical even in the transition from non-living membrane-bound chemical entities to the simplest prokaryotic cells. While multiple life origin events are a theoretical possibility, the universal nature of the DNA genetic code and the extreme specificity of living cells with respect to chemical isomers, suggests that all living cells today are probably descended from a single primordial cell type. Other proto-cell types may have evolved, but, if they did, they were ultimately displaced by the descendants of the single cell lineage."

While we have not yet created a living cell from amino acids, we have the evidence of the succession from single cell organisms to more complex and successively sophisticated forms of life.

Maybe God or aliens caused the transition from amino acid to cell - there's no hard evidence either way, but the transition from simple to complex once that cell came into being is proven.
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IceMan



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 2892
Location: Yorkshire!!!!!!!

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject:  

if adam and eve we re real wouldnt we have the same dna somewhere in our genes?
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 3946

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject:  

DNA stays the same, but its combination into genes keeps changing generation to generation. It's mainly subtle, but my Dad has three kidneys which is a huge rearrangement of DNA.

I saw an article about cane toads, an introduced species. In the last few years, they spread from Queensland to the tropical part of Australia's Northern Territory.

They are toxic to eat, so fears were held for the native predators of the region - mainly snakes and lizards. Some of the predators have died out, but those with the genetic makeup to avoid the toads have survived. It's not learned behaviour because reptiles are solitary and don't learn from each other.

Now, the remaining predators consist only of those with the toad-avoiding gene where before they were a few among many. Also, only the fastest and most long-legged genes have survived in the toads, and those genes are passed on.

All this happened in less than five years. For each species, a certain environmental challenge and a corresponding change in the genetic makeup. Multiply this by many many environmental challenges and changes in the genetic makeup over millions of years and one species has evolved into another.
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Erebus



Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1285
Location: England

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:43 am    Post subject:  

Right! I've got me boots on, it's about time I waded into this!

IluvA51 - Faith - no we don't all have faith - I'll explain in a sec...
Tafkao actually the reason you "trust" the chair will not break is because you have FAITH in science!!!! I don't have faith in, well anything! Science changes every 10 seconds. One minute something's good for you, the next it's bad. One minute the world's flat the next it's round! I have a bunch of ideas that I believe are most likely the correct ones, for the minute. However a good explanation can change those beliefs very easily.

If god is omnipotent why the mistakes? Why aren't we perfect?

What's the point in a book(the bible) that doesn't really say what it says? It can be interpretated to mean whatever you want! Why? Why have a book at all then?

Cain goes around the corner (!?!) to the land of Nod (where I come from the land of nod means sleep!) and there were lots of other people there! Yes the bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve were god's only creation, but let's face it, that some pretty fucking shitty story telling! Who's the fucking author J K Rowling?

Noah and the flood - 8 people and a whole lot of animals - know what you're thinking West Ham!

Minty - Nice explanation on the missing link thing!

Warwgn - probably gonna be shot down for blasphemy, but you've got it all wrong! Man created god in his own image! Yet another thing I hate about that fucking book (sorry), but I find it so difficult to imagine god being a human male!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aliens - I don't discount it, but I find it unlikely. I do believe that they have had a hand in our past though!

Finally back to the real topic, my thoughts:
Long story short: the gods are evolution, they've pushed life this way and that since it's inception, they create mutants, we're just one of it's products, probably not even that interesting a sample.
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 3946

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject:  

I trust the chair won't break because my experience leads me to believe it's highly unlikely that a chair will break when I sit on it. Relying on science is not the same as science which involves observation, ananysis and drawing conclusions. I have no scientific beliefs about chairs, so it's not having 'faith' in science.

I believe in the evolutionary model because of the elucidation by fact and theory. That's not faith either, faith is a belief unsupported by facts or reason as in 'an act of faith'.

I am convinced by facts and reason, and I think that if science changes because knowledge increases that's a good thing or we never would have even got to stone tools (discovering and manipulating stone tools was science and technology too).
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Erebus



Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1285
Location: England

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject:  

Ok fair point, the chair was a really bad analogy from the start!

However you talk of blind faith, not faith! Faith can have both facts and reason behind it - "I have faith that god exists, because he created humans and I do not believe in any other theory for our existence. Vis a vis god exists"

You talk of "observation, analysis and drawing conclusions", which everyone does and is not science, mainly the building blocks of science.

It is my belief that science is not real (I know you're thinking I'm crazy now, but hear what i have to say). Science tries to explain everything, I don't think it can be done! I believe that there are things out there that defy laws, that will never be quantified or measured. I believe that as our understanding of the multiverse expands, we will become aware of these things, some will accept their nature, others will not and spend the rest of eternity trying to explain them with science.

In the unlikely (IMO) event that science is real, I believe we know only of the gnat's but in the world of science and that everything we know to be fact now, will be completely altered in a thousand years time and regard like the whole world is flat episode!

But back to the faith thing - To believe something is to have faith in it. You believe science has proven evolution. I say you have faith that science is correct. I have faith that science is wrong, perhaps not in the case of evolution, but in general!

Interestingly, did you know Darwin returned to christianity in the latter part of his life, recanted his own theory in favour of creation and the love of his god?
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Ilovearea51



Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 366
Location: In 80 years alone in a hole.

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject:  

Complex man was created by Millons of years of evulotion. Yhea.
The earth was created by a big bang or other. yhea.

Lets all agree that our comlex emotions and thought pattens came from millons of years of convinent happinings.

Lets all belive that your earth was perfict by events in evultion and chance. (and if god did not create it it curtanily had to be chance.) And that if a few things were off we couldnt live on this delacte earth.

Chance created the complex. Evultion Created the Complex.

belive in it if you may.

While I continue to pray for you all.

Amen.
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tafkao



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 3946

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:24 am    Post subject:  

I can't ahve scientific knowledge about whether a chair will hold me up because I know almost no physics or carpentry, welding etc.

I believe that if we had enough time, science would eventually explain everything and scientific laws would be clarified and superseded until perfect. In 1900 physicists thought everything new had been established already, and then came Einstein. I think humans will make themselves extinct through their ignorance before that happens.

Belief without the support of facts is faith. Faith supported by facts is belief. Two separate concepts, two separate words. It stop the point you are trying to make from getting confused. Facts are proven things, and need no faith.

***********

Ilove area51, good to hear from you, I was wondering where you got to.

Complex causes have complex effects and cause complex things. So it's cause and effect, not chance. Thanks for your prayers.
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Erebus



Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1285
Location: England

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject:  

Interesting argument with one slight flaw - beliefs don't require facts!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief

Belief and faith are interchangeable, tense not withstanding!

tafkao wrote: Facts are proven things, and need no faith.

I disagree. You take a fact to be true because you have faith that the person proving that fact was correct. Take Minty's dissection of Nebraska Man. He caused people to have less faith in that fact.

You believe scientific facts to be true because they make sense and people with greater scientific knowledge have passed them as acceptable. However your faith in that fact is shaken by an opposing fact that is held in greater esteem by those same greater scientific minds!
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