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The Big Bang
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Do you think the big bang is real?
Hell yeah
80%
 80%  [ 8 ]
No, it's a load of bull
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
God made the universe scientists know nothing
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
Other
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 10

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Skorpz
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Joined: 04 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bean824 wrote:
So then you're saying that whatever the Bible says is true. So when it says that Jesus turned water to wine, and 2 fish to 40 fish (or something like that), then it really happened? What if the Bible said that all of the characters died in a car crash? Would you take that to be real to?


Yes whatever the Bible says is true, why are you trying to insult Jesus? He is the son of God and yes he can turn water to wine and do anything.

Bean824 wrote:
And besides, the Red Shift idea, which i wholely belive, proves the Big Bang theory.


How on earth can something be proved if it is still a theory? If it was proved it wouldn't be called a theory. Your lack of common sense is incredible and I can't believe you are arguing a point that has not been proved and secondly you are insulting beliefs. I may not be very religious however I do believe in God and I do believe what the Bible says.
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AVARiCE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bean824 wrote:
Red Shift can be proved scientifically, as you have seen in science lessons. God can't be proved scienifically, mentally, or in any other way. Get me stone cold proof of God being real, and I will publically apologise for wasting people's time Smile .


None of us got a flipping word of what she said. Be honest.

I can't give you stone cold proof that God exists. You will point at that and say "Well there you go, I'm right you're wrong" but I find that the beauty of God. I'm 100% sure of His existence, but you're not and what made me sure won't make you sure. However, I can use your train of thought to prove his existence.

First of all, you have to accept that a Jew called Jesus lived 2000+ years ago. You don't have to accept him as the son of God but you have to accept that he lived. You also have to accept that he did amazing things, miracles. But don't take them for miracles. Give Kemo a pack of cards and he performs miracles as well. Historians do not doubt that Jesus lived and that he performed "miracles", this much is accepted. Jesus is the Red Shift theory here. Jesus said he could do these miracles because he was the son of God. God is your Big Bang theory. As you have it, we are arguing the same point, but from different views.

The main difference? I am open-minded and believe in a spirit/presence that is greater than mine. I also accept that I am not part of the greatest species in the history of time, because that is the sort of ego that is at the heart of human destruction. I follow a set of simple rules which don't really restrict me, but help me make the world a nicer place to live in.

~ AVARiCE
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bean824
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not insulting anyone. I simply said the credibility of the Bible texts is less than the credibility of Red Shift. Oh, and the Red Shift theory is recommened by many scientists, who i think know more from the technology availiable at this time than the first writes of the Bible.

Neither proved nor disapproved either point. A good time for me to leave this thread, I think. Razz
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AVARiCE
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Historians use technology developed by Scientists. Jesus lived, he performed "miracles". Whether you think he was a con artist or not is the question.

As for not being insulting, what's this then?:

bean824 wrote:
And you belive many different people, from men in robes who created the idea of an all powerful being to explain the unknown.


"Men in robes", hey? You mean monks? People which deserve respect for giving up their lives (effectively), to make the world a better place?

"Created"? Good creation though, you make something up that billions will believe over a period of centuries.

"Explain the unknown". This is the most ironic statement you've made all day. Read the bible, or parts of it and you'll understand it's one of the best pieces of literature ever. A real "bestseller". Tell me how conveying the mainstream ideology of not murdering and living a good life is explaining the unknown.

~ AVARiCE
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warwgn
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AVARiCE wrote:

The Bible. If people worldwide believed it for hundreds of years and people believed in God for thousands what makes you special? Now give me the answer to the question please, I'm not going fishing for your answer Smile

~ AVARiCE


lets chalk that one up there with people belived the world was flat and the the sun moved around the earth!! Just because people have belived it for a long time does not make it true. So I am special because I have had more education and modern technology has provided a better understanding of the universe than it did a few hundred or thousands of years ago.


AVARiCE wrote:
Here's my irony!!

You believe people in white suits telling you that the universe started with an atom!! Oh man, you've got to be kidding me.

~ AVARiCE


No but I can see the evidence they use to back up their claims and the tests they have used to verify it.

AVARiCE wrote:
Your intelligence levels astound me. You sound like a bitter baby BTW, next time you attempt to take a low-blow, don't embarass yourself publicly. Everyone who reads this thread now sees a grown man taking a cheap shot to a 15 year old



not embarassed at all, God is just a a belief or made up. God doesnt even rate to be called a theory according the definition, since there is no mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.

so the only logical explination is the Big Bang as far as our current knowledge and understanding allows. Anything else is just fanciful speculation without any sort of real evidence to support a theory or fact.
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bean824
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AVARiCE wrote:
Historians use technology developed by Scientists. Jesus lived, he performed "miracles". Whether you think he was a con artist or not is the question.

As for not being insulting, what's this then?:

bean824 wrote:
And you belive many different people, from men in robes who created the idea of an all powerful being to explain the unknown.


"Men in robes", hey? You mean monks? People which deserve respect for giving up their lives (effectively), to make the world a better place?

"Created"? Good creation though, you make something up that billions will believe over a period of centuries.

"Explain the unknown". This is the most ironic statement you've made all day. Read the bible, or parts of it and you'll understand it's one of the best pieces of literature ever. A real "bestseller". Tell me how conveying the mainstream ideology of not murdering and living a good life is explaining the unknown.

~ AVARiCE


For the monks comment, read Medici Seal, then you see why I give monks utmost respect. By men in robes I meant the people who wrote the Bible. A little un-pc but then haven't all the post been so in this thread?

So is the creation of the Universe from something smaller than a pinhead.

And I have read the Bible, my mujms a librarian, remember. It is the bestselling book of all time. I just don't belive in it.
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tafkao
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put yourself in the shoes of a creator. Do you wish to signal your existence or conceal it?

Are you going to send a messenger to 21st Century scientists to elaborate who you are and how you did it, which would be definitive proof, or spin an agglomeration of sensible rules to live by, folklore history and tales of wonder to some credulous peasants who had barely learned to write, in the sure knowledge that the message will become garbled and manipulated over the centuries?

What was the intent? Is it for the same reason that aliens always abduct Idaho potato farmers and never Nobel laureates?

If there is a Creator, It does not want me to know or understand It, in terms in which I can understand It, and if the Creator did not want me like that It would not have made me so. The Creator's wish is not to be known. It's a test of character, and those who refuse to subscribe to an unprovable body of belief in a greedy and unrealistic expectation of eternal rewards will be saved.

As for the Big Bang, Warwgn has said pretty much what I would have said, only better.
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AVARiCE
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bean824 wrote:
For the monks comment, read Medici Seal, then you see why I give monks utmost respect. By men in robes I meant the people who wrote the Bible. A little un-pc but then haven't all the post been so in this thread?

So is the creation of the Universe from something smaller than a pinhead.

And I have read the Bible, my mujms a librarian, remember. It is the bestselling book of all time. I just don't belive in it.


I call bull on that.

warwgn wrote:
lets chalk that one up there with people belived the world was flat and the the sun moved around the earth!! Just because people have belived it for a long time does not make it true. So I am special because I have had more education and modern technology has provided a better understanding of the universe than it did a few hundred or thousands of years ago.


This is all about belief. You don't have it, that's fine. Not my problem. My problem is that you have no respect for mine, which is poor on your part. For the majority here I have been countering points that bean has put forward. I'm pointing out to you that we're at the same stage on developed thought, except that my "story" is a nicer tale and worth telling the kids. Instead of arguing with me about this, because I'm honestly getting fed up of this, why don't you ask yourself why you hate God so much? Remember, you can't lie to yourself.


warwgn wrote:
No but I can see the evidence they use to back up their claims and the tests they have used to verify it.


Because Jesus, the son of God wasn't? Note how you can place as much faith in Science as you want, Science is only as good as the Scientists who are researching it.

warwgn wrote:
God doesnt even rate to be called a theory according the definition, since there is no mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.


Oh noes! God can't be downgraded from superior being/omniscient spirit to "theory". I bet that really got you going.

warwgn wrote:
so the only logical explination is the Big Bang as far as our current knowledge and understanding allows. Anything else is just fanciful speculation without any sort of real evidence to support a theory or fact.


Yup, screw Jesus. The Big Bang with the little atom exploding thing that made everything and explains everything ever so I can go and grab a mug of tea and sip while the rest of you spread the message is DEFINITELY logic.

~ AVARiCE
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bean824
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can bull on it all you like, put a pig or sheep or any other farmyard animals on it, that's what i've done.
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area51newmexico
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AVARiCE wrote:

area51newmexico wrote:
Well, while I believe that the Big Bang is a very strong & interesting theory, I'm not 100% convienced by it. I guess I'm just waiting for another, better, theory to come along or something to disprove the existing theories.

What I don't belive is that a god created the universe. Gods are just stories created by early humans to explain the unknown.


I don't think anyone is 100% convinced by it, but people go along with it as Scientists preach it, whereas the alternate isn't allowed to be preached. Political Correctness and all that censorship crap.

Unfortunately Helen, the second part of your post is rather ignorant and I would consider revising it, not just because it is insulting but because it is very close-minded. It also sounds like you have listened to mainstream culture and nodded under pressure.

~ AVARiCE


I'm not dissing what you believe in, I'm just stating my opinion. I haven't nodded to pressure. I was brought up in a religious christian family who believe that God is all powerful and created our world. So in actuality, I have read up about it and made up my own mind. I just don't buy the god stuff.
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warwgn
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AVARiCE wrote:
This is all about belief. You don't have it, that's fine. Not my problem. My problem is that you have no respect for mine, which is poor on your part.


Not about respect here, I have no problem with you beliveing what you want, but when we discuss facts and viable theories I wont conceede god as either just to make you feel better about what you believe. I will always state what has been proven or has reliable evidence to back up my statments.

AVARiCE wrote:
I'm pointing out to you that we're at the same stage on developed thought, except that my "story" is a nicer tale and worth telling the kids.


Exactly my point, yours is a nice "story" with morals and a point behind it and has given comfort to billions of people over the ages, and helped the world become what it is today. But alas it is not real observable testable facts nor does it match with the laws of physics and what we know to be true today.

AVARiCE wrote:
Instead of arguing with me about this, because I'm honestly getting fed up of this, why don't you ask yourself why you hate God so much? Remember, you can't lie to yourself.


I cant hate something that does not exist, I cant even dislike it. But I can reject following along with the masses and believing in it just because everone else says it's a good story and they belive it. Try and remember I am not arguing what you belive in, only the fact and theory(as defined) of how the universe started. If you truly believe god did it then state how he did it or prove that the big bang is wrong in theory by disproving the evidence and observable aspect that it contains. This is really a one sided argument when all you can say is god did it but not how then you have given nothing to collaborate your statment which means it is only opinion based on nothing but what you believe. Given that there is nothing to argue since I cant refute what you believe in since the only person with authority in your beliefs is you and I must take what you say you belive as fact that you believe it. However that still does not make your beliefs true.



AVARiCE wrote:
Because Jesus, the son of God wasn't? Note how you can place as much faith in Science as you want, Science is only as good as the Scientists who are researching it.


No faith in science at all, it does not require faith to be true and observable. It is only what we can see and test, I think you mean the evidence is only as good as the scientists effort to present it. And that is true, some is very easy to understand and near impossible to refute, while others are more vague.


AVARiCE wrote:
Oh noes! God can't be downgraded from superior being/omniscient spirit to "theory". I bet that really got you going.


I think that got you going because the idea of god doesnt rate to be a theory or fact by definition. Which it doesnt Rolling Eyes


AVARiCE wrote:
Yup, screw Jesus. The Big Bang with the little atom exploding thing that made everything and explains everything ever so I can go and grab a mug of tea and sip while the rest of you spread the message is DEFINITELY logic.

~ AVARiCE


No message to spread, no moral behind it, it's just the "facts". The truth is not there to make you feel better nor does it have any agenda or make any promises, it's just what is.....TRUE!
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Skorpz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well yes. God has no form or shape he can be anything and everything and if that is what he looks like then so be it, it doesn't change the fact that he is God.
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area51newmexico
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do love a good debate!
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tafkao
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this post in full before clicking on the link, and persevere, as some of it will make sense. An interesting article which could have gone in several threads, so I just posted it in the most recent one. In the 80s, I studied an undergraduate philosophy course in the geometry of the universe, including the proposition that it was shaped like a doughnut.

This article covers geometry of the universe and be warned. I really struggled with the subject, and an older member of the Philosophy Club told me that the text book was actually for honours maths/physics. "If you take philosophy or logic far enough, all you have left is maths/physics." So don't be put off if you don't follow the geometry, just skim it and read on about the Big Bang.

In case you care, I got a pass mark, but I suspect more for the effort I put in trying to get on top of the subject rather than for my philosophical prowess.

More on-topic, this article also has the data which supports the Big Bang theory. Ockham's Razor says "don't multiply entities beyond necessities", sometimes dumbed down into "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one."

It is hard to come up with a non-supernatural explanation for the observed phenomena without the BB, which currently is the most economical. Where is the evidence that something other than the BB happened.

SPOILER - the latest observations indicate that the universe isn't doughnut shaped.
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BritishKid
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tafkao wrote:
From what I can gather about the Big Bang all the matter in the universe agglomerated together, with the force of gravity both compressing all matter into an infintessimal space and also causing corespondingly intense heat, presumably to the point where the whole thing exploded, ejecting matter 13.5 billion light years from the point of origin. I believe that when the momentum from the Big Bang is dissipated, matter will begin to accumulate again and eventually another Big Bang will result. So before the Big Bang was a another universe and before that another BB, ad infinitum.

this is pretty much what i think (badly explained in other thread)
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